001a Connect the Dots from Chris Plough

​Loura and Stephen will discuss their takeaways from the prior episode with Chris Plough. They will talk about the things they’ve implemented, the ones they want to try out and how Chris’ insights are helping them embrace the exciting unknown.

Links:
www.chrisplough.com

TranscriptStephen Christopher  0:00  

What’s going on everybody, Stephen Christopher. here along with my awesome co host, Laura Sanchez. Hey, welcome to the exciting unknown. Today we have an absolutely amazing guest. One of my really, really close and great and Dear friends, Mr. Chris Plough. Chris, welcome to the show.

Thank you. I truly appreciate it.

Yeah, awesome. Man, I appreciate you taking time out of your marvelous journey that you’re on right now, to hang out with us a little bit. And so let’s just kind of dive right into this. Chris, you know, you you’ve been extremely successful, and especially to the outside world, right. And we’ll talk about the inner world in a little bit, but to the outside world. I mean, you ran a large company, well over 100 people, you worked with fortune 50 companies, I mean, some of the top companies in the entire country, and we’re just extremely successful, right? I mean, you’re part of mastermind groups. You Were you give sought after advice all the time you’re a speaker you’re on many podcast shows like just a truly truly successful person. And then at some point what in the last couple of years How long has it been now since you sold or since you were

Unknown Speaker  9:16  

yours it’s actually been four years

Stephen Christopher  9:18  

that’s crazy so so four years ago you sold this company and went on this kind of journey to I don’t know I guess what fine find what’s next find a deeper calling find deeper meaning and yeah,

I find myself quite honest. I think like knowing yourself was a big part of this and then from there, what is it that I want to spend my life energy on what is it is truly that important to me and hopefully to others? Hmm. So talk a little bit about like, this decision point, right, this decision point to sell and when for you How did that show up? Like did it show up as like this
kind of slow build over a couple years, like did you feel that there was something bigger, different? Some sort of life purpose, or just something that was maybe missing? And it just kind of built? Or was it did us wake up one day and you’re like, oh, something’s changing.

Unknown Speaker  10:19  

So it’s interesting that you mentioned like, success and successful like, I think for context, like I ran a fairly large company, it was, like you said, very between 100 and hundred and 20 people plus 60 to 80 contractors. We had offices around the globe became a truly global company, eight figures, etc. And, in the midst of that, I’ll be honest with you, like I don’t know if I ever really felt successful, like you had all the trappings and I would get validation from others because other people were excited by what I was doing it and I was excited to especially when I was learning and it was growing. It was like, just fascinating. experience to learn how to do a lot of these things I didn’t know how to do. But once that learning began to die down, I realized what I was left with was this company that had been created that had these incredible people in it like it was. It was like this, this family in this tribe, but I felt an immense responsibility to. And yet at the same time, I realized I didn’t care about what we were doing. Like I truly, the the mission of the company was around logistics, right? So we had plants like Newell, Rubbermaid, and Coca Cola. And success meant saving them between one to maybe four or 5% of their logistic spend each year, right? And you could rationalize that and say, Well, maybe you’re saving admissions and helping the world in some way. But there was no real tangible as to why this was important. Why outside of my own learning and taking care of these people that I truly cared about, like like what there was there. So I sold into in 2016. But as early as 2010, like really around 2010 is when I knew that it wasn’t going to be the company for me. And I was open about this with my partner, I was open about this with the person who helped me run this company from all the back office perspective zita. But I didn’t know how to be as open and honest with everybody within the company, because I felt this responsibility and I felt like that if I was unstable or presented as unstable, that it wouldn’t be good for their lives, right. Like I had to be that strong figure that helped this thing continue forward for their only their own livelihood and for my livelihood as well. And I struggled with it for a long time. And I honestly began the journey of trying to figure out what I wanted what could potentially be next as early as 2011. Then that’s when I joined open the kimono with with Tim Ferris I met Jason gain ARD, who runs mastermind talks and I met Joey Coleman who later introduced me to Yannick silver and the Mavericks and all these groups and stuff that I was in. And I began to receive all his ideas. And it really, for me hit a head around 2014, round 2014 I had been doing this for long enough, I kept going in and out of these periods of burnout because I was putting so much energy into the company. At times, I would try to hand it over to my business partner. And it was just a company that required both of us to run it well. And so when I would step back, he was left with more responsibility. And it just the whole thing didn’t work. It needed both of us I would step back in and it became like this makeup breakup really. Ship quite honestly, like where I didn’t fully want to be there, but I felt this immense responsibility to be there. And because I was stepping in and out, it wasn’t really fair to everybody in the company and I even Long after the sale of the company, I struggled with this, I struggled because I felt like I was letting people down, which is one of my deeper fears from growing up in childhood growth and my parents and everything else it was letting people down. And

Unknown Speaker  14:17  

I honestly got to a point finally by about 2015, where I realized I had to step away no matter what. And I came to the decision that I was willing to allow the company to go bankrupt, if that was what was required, that I could no longer step in to save it or to to help the company forward. And that was doing it a disservice to me and a disservice to the company by this, like I said, Make up break up relationship that we had. And fortunately, around that time, there was some some people that I knew within my network who had a similar company in a similar vein, more software oriented than mine and There was a synergy and bringing the two companies together. And so we began to talk about acquisition. And I’m really fortunate that that worked out, because it did two things. One is it provided some financial incentive. By this point, the company had gone way up. And it also began to come down because of the actions of myself and my partner. And it provided some financial like, like benefit for us to move to acquisition. But it also gave me the sense that maybe my people would be taken care of, which was an enormous weight off my shoulder and something that I had struggled with for a long time. And I didn’t think it was actually going to happen. It had this this thing where we get close to it happening, and then there would be an issue and I didn’t know if it would, and when it finally did, I didn’t. I didn’t even know how to be to be perfectly honest with you. I’ve been in this company now for 10 years. I’d started it in 2006. And it was so much of my life. I didn’t know how to be without the company and quite honestly, I kept trying to jump into the same patterns even after it was sold.

Stephen Christopher  16:08  

Like with the say, with your company or with other just other things in life, right? Like you’re just repeating those same patterns, maybe in potential new businesses or partnerships or whatever.

Unknown Speaker  16:18  

Yeah, both so I was very fortunate that the people who bought my company knew a lot of my personal struggles like we have been in this mastermind we got really deep, they knew the difficulties that I’d had, including depression and very, very difficult. Even suicidal thoughts, be perfectly bluntly honest, like it got to that level and and I’ve been through these cycles for most of my life. So this wasn’t new to me. But the stress of the company kept pushing me up and down into these highs and lows that I found very difficult. And so after it was sold, I’m like, Okay, I’ll just stay on and I’ll be a consultant and I’ll help with this process. And I’ll have Unconsciously I didn’t realize this, but like some meaning some purpose, something to do, right? Because the unknown, like the unknown was scary to me, even though I didn’t consciously realize at the time. And the when they bought it at the beginning of May, they told me and they bought it in March. So the beginning of May, they told me, by the way, end of May, you’re out, like, you’re not going to be involved in this company at all. And so they didn’t give me a choice, which was both for them to be able to take it forward in their own vision. And also because they knew that that was the best thing that could happen for me as well. And, and then after that, like you said, whether it was other business partnerships, or just my own life, I was as busy or busier for the next almost three years, as I was when I was running the company. It really took two to three years for me to begin to settle down into like a new rhythm. That I didn’t feel like it was always go go go do do do prove, prove prove like like, how is it that I get my own value? How is it that my ego is satisfied? How is it that I feel like I’m worth something. And that began to quiet down, which gave me time to process things that I was already processing, but to actually really, really sit in it. And about a year, two years ago, really two years ago, my life began to shift very dramatically as a result of that.

Stephen Christopher  18:33  

Hmm, wow. So going back, you know, 2010 to 2016, right. So six years when you kind of started thinking about it 2011 when you started talking about it with at least within your team and to your partner, looking back at that now, because I know a lot of us a lot of entrepreneurs, myself included, right, like we have these feelings, and you know, those lasted for six years. Looking back? What would you would you do anything differently? Or would you tell yourself something differently? Or, you know, like, I hear this identity piece, right? Like a lot of people, and this is my theory is that a lot of us as entrepreneurs, we we start a business based out of some sort of necessity, right? We’re like, Oh, yeah, well, we’ve got to make money and do this. And we find some skills we’re good at, we do it and it becomes our identity. Well, we forget along the way, or we’re just not aware enough to like start creating our own identity. While we’re in the business, you know, creating our own separate identity. So that, you know, that business can be kind of take on a life of its own, and then we can take on a life of our own so that we can best contribute to it. But looking back, I mean, have you have you thought about this, like, what would you tell yourself or what would you tell somebody else in that position? Or that’s, you know, maybe at the beginning, the middle or the end of that

Unknown Speaker  20:01  

I haven’t actually thought about that. So I’m just gonna run through this in my mind, we’re gonna go on this journey together

Stephen Christopher  20:07  

do it.

Unknown Speaker  20:10  

Number one,

Unknown Speaker  20:13  

realizing just how high the standards I put upon myself to be perfect for myself for the company for others to be this leader who was unflappable infallible and and there was no need for it quite honestly. And so the first would be to have that conversation with myself and begin to reduce and relieve that pressure, which would have been allowed me to be more open with the company as a whole, because it really was even though it was a medium sized company. It really was this tight knit group that had a very family feel. And if I could have been more honest, that whole thing, then I wouldn’t have had to feel like I was playing these two different roles of, you know, the perfect founder leader guide and this really hurt and what I felt at the time broken person on the back end, right? And that would have allowed me to more deeply embrace my own worth outside of the company, even though for those six years I was creating this, this my own identity outside of the company like it was going in that direction, right of being able to truly have both.

Stephen Christopher  21:30  

But

Unknown Speaker  21:32  

I couldn’t embrace that it was almost like there was a shame. No, almost I was I felt this immense guilt and shame for having a life that was beginning to go separate from the company itself. And if I really could have addressed that I could have hit that from the beginning and not felt that be perfectly honest with you because I wasn’t doing anything to hurt anybody. I wasn’t doing anything that was derogatory or unresponsive. For anything else, but because of these insanely perfectionistic standards that I had had for myself, I felt that I was. And so that just meant that I began, like I was going on adventures in this time, like it took the rickshaw through India, the ambulance to Mongolia, etc. And I wouldn’t even share those because I felt that like shameful I felt shameful that I wanted this life outside of, of the relationship of this business. And I think that’s a good frame to look at it because a business is like a really intimate relationship. And I began wanting things outside of it, and feeling shameful and not being able to truly be myself, which meant that I also wasn’t fully present and loving and, and helpful and helping like this company that I cared about grow and become what it could have been. And if I’d done that, then I could have also worked with my partner to set up a better structure that would have allowed him and I to potentially even go our own ways while keeping the company viable and growing and having the right support and everything in it. Might have needed. And it may not have had to go through its financial turmoil that it did in order to get to a point where it became clear that the only decision was to sell. Right. I think there might have been another option there that could have been good for everybody. But regardless, then at the end of it, when we finally did partner on ways, I wouldn’t have had to deal with this buildup of what I felt were years of guilt and shame, which was a lot of that healing and growth that’s happened since.

Stephen Christopher  23:29  

Yeah. Wow. How much of your like, how much of this decision that you kind of made? Or the thing that was like holding you back from maybe making this decision or kind of like this, this final choice point, how much of that was based out of, like fear of fear of like scarcity stuff, right? Like, you know, very specific like money, those types of things, how many of those things kind of held you back from the decision versus You know this other thing about kind of like, just that deep, I guess, knowing that there was something bigger or something better or you were just not quite in the right place.

Unknown Speaker  24:11  

scarcity, for me was a big part of it. So another thing that’s been predominant for my life, and I’ll be on something I still am working with, is I have always felt that that money, money and time, that money was this incredibly scarce resource, right. And that this was the thing that if I could get to a certain level would provide me the stability that I needed to go off and do the things I really wanted to do for the rest of my life. Right. And so there was this driving factor financially to do it. And it’s funny that, as I’ve looked back on that a bit more, like I’ve made as much, potentially even more money through the investments that I’ve made over the years in startups in crypto currency and an even standard stock market type stuff, I’ve made more money that way. Then I have via even via the company including the the sell of the company. And so while it felt like it was all encompassing and like, like this was the thing that really needed all of my focus in order to get me to a point where I could do what I truly wanted to do, I can look back and realize that that wasn’t true, that that there have always been these other opportunities. And I can actually look back at a few of them now and go, Wow, if I had this broader awareness, there were other opportunities that came along that I could have invested my time money skills, whatever it was appropriate at the time. That would have benefited me more financially than continuing to, you know, focus on on this particular company, including like what I shared with my partner like there was a way for this company to continue And flourish on its own. Without me and I’d truly been able to step into like that decision and and seeing where that could go. That could have been one of those opportunities as well. So scarcity, time and money are two things that I’ve struggled with my entire life I’m coming to more piece now with money. And time is one that I still find difficult. Hmm.

Stephen Christopher  26:25  

That’s Yeah, I mean, that’s that’s huge insight, right? Because I think that I know for me, a lot of it comes around money, right? Like, you know, I got it, I gotta go work and make the money so that I can do this and what you know, one of the big reasons why we’re doing this show, the exciting unknown is helping both both of us and everybody else listening to start to really think bigger, right or, or be more open to all of the possibilities out there because we can get so narrow focused, and then we get you know, then we I only see one or two possible solutions, then we only see, you know, one or two ways to, you know, maybe make money or better use our time. And then we get stressed about that. And we’re losing out on what other contributions we could be making to other people within our businesses within our friend groups within the world, whatever that is. So yeah, that’s, that’s it. It’s just very interesting to me, like, and I always feel like I’m the only one that has that, like, Oh, my gosh, you know, Chris, Chris is amazing. Chris never has to worry about money. Like, if we’re time, right. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, you’ve got all the time in the world now. But you still struggle with Wait a minute, time is scarce. I have to maximize it. I have to be efficient. I have to focus and get done what I need to get done, because that’s what we’ve been taught all of our lives.

Unknown Speaker  27:47  

Very, very well said, right. And yet, at the same time, I can look back and realize, like the moments when I was intensely present, were the least stressful of my life, but also the one where things just happened? Well, like I was the right place the right time, like the right person did the right thing. Like things just continue to work. And so I know that right we have an intellectual knowing we have a deeper embodiment of doing it still working its way down to the embodiment of knowing. And I’m also not going to claim here that there’s one solution for everybody like, like, for me, I truly believe that stepping out earlier and more directly and more firmly, and maybe even more boldly, would have been a really good choice. But I also have a friend of mine who I’ve talked through this, and he’s going through this with his own company. And for him, the path seems to be the right one, to take this to some type of exit acquisition or whatever it might be, and to have those resources to invest where he wants, right. So there isn’t one choice, like the choice I don’t think matters so much because it’s individualized per person. But understanding your true motivations and your true heart and what’s going on is the key to making the decision that’s right for you in particular, right in honor During that, and I think about the scarcity thing, like you were saying, Steven, and we think, okay, I’ve got this one opportunity and this seems to be working. And if I put my all into it, it’s going to work, even if my heart’s so you can’t actually put all into because my heart wasn’t fully there for a long part of the company. And then I can just think speed, like just a little like with the mind outside of the opportunity for a second. I care about people I care about people feeling a hole and feeling heard. And especially in this time that we’re that we’re going through, like just truly feeling heard and understood, because I think it’s one of the best gifts we can give to anybody. And if you can provide some type of service, whatever this might be, like, it could be anything that’s right for each person, if you could do that, and truly touch people and help people at that very core way. If it’s 100 people or 1000 people or 10,000, or it can scale up from there. Like the value in that is immense, like immense, like like that is what many of us in life I know, myself included, have have searched for. And so to say that there isn’t an abundance of opportunity, both in terms of fulfillment and in terms of financial wealth and everything else like like, like, enormous and how, how could I discount now I’m talking to myself, right? Like, how can I discount that? Because I had this thing that was so tangible and felt so secure in front of me, and yet wasn’t tangible or secure, because my heart wasn’t in it, right? Like just to feel that dichotomy and realize that this opportunity is so vast, and quite honestly 10 or 100 or 1000 times what the value of this was, for me in particular, right like, that is a huge perspective to have. And again, one that I understand very well here and is beginning To be embodied more deeply so that I can live it and be it instead of just think about it.

Stephen Christopher  31:05  

Yeah, that’s great. I think we’re moving towards this paradigm shift where more people are starting to understand or accept their knowing, right? Like, we know, okay, we know, most of us know that money doesn’t give us fulfillment, right? So we’re at this point now, we’ve come this far along this kind of paradigm shift. Like we know that money doesn’t give us fulfillment. We do know that money can help us have experiences that provide fulfillment can have contribution that provides fulfillment. And I think we’re, we’re just now starting to like, I don’t know, like, tip the scale on it, just enough to where there’s more people talking about it. There’s more groups kind of leaning into this and having conversations about it, you know, you mentioned mmt and Mavericks, you know, we’re starting to get to a place in the world where I think this is a more real conversation right? 10 years ago, you know, you go to a business conference or maybe 20 years ago and people like, Oh, yeah, like heart centered entrepreneurship. Well, that nobody said that. Yet, you know, somebody’s like, Oh, yeah, like, do it for the people do it for the employees, and then they go back and they’re like, yeah, okay, well, after the fucking bottom line is done. Yeah, as you say, until it feeds me, I get I make more money because my employees are happier because they then produce more, which then affects the bottom line, which then gives me what I want, which is more money, or whatever your case may be. Yeah. And I think we’re finally getting to a point where there’s enough leaders saying, Okay, I know this, even though it’s super scary and uncomfortable. There’s enough people or enough proof you know, even though it’s tiny, there’s enough proof that when we lean into this and we truly, you know, go after those things that that truly give us fulfillment we fully use our strengths we become aware of the strengths we become aware of what we as individuals are great at What we have to best contribute, and know that by doing those things, we will have fulfillment, we will we will be like I mean from from a financial standpoint, we will be abundant. Now, that doesn’t always necessarily just mean money, abundance means fulfillment, at least more so to me, so even if we say, Hey, I really wanted to have a private jet, well, maybe really what you want is you just want the convenience of being able to travel like that, well, I believe within the universe, if that’s your intention, you set that out, and it will connect the dots to where maybe you don’t, maybe you don’t buy a private jet. But maybe you end up with five friends that have it and they always want you to be around because you’re giving them something and they’re giving you something. But I don’t know. Anyway, I just I just believe that we’re finally like, I can see this little glimmer of light to where we’re really starting to believe or at least leaders are really starting to believe that this as possible

Unknown Speaker  34:02  

hundred percent something just occurred to me and I’m gonna see if I can build up to that that thought and make this all makes sense. So number one is I don’t think that that financial wealth let’s take that as just one category of wealth like financial wealth is a bad thing right like so for me personally, what I realized that did allow me is it allowed me financial access and and the ability to travel to be in these groups that we talked about to speak with other entrepreneurs and not to not feel alone and other people going on this journey of both building companies and finding themselves and finding more meaning and purpose as well. Right. So immensely valuable. And then once my company was sold, I had I’ve now had the space of four years of not having to work like four years like that’s it’s like its own college basically. Huh? Yeah. Wow. You

Stephen Christopher  34:56  

like that?

Unknown Speaker  34:57  

Right plow you. I’ve had for years to Be able to go in and do nothing like even when I went to college, I was working and everything else, like, I actually got to focus on my own healing and learning and growth for four years. Without a lot of these outside pressures. Incredible, I wouldn’t have had that opportunity in the same way without this, you know, financial wealth. I love it. But what I hear you saying and what I feel as well, I’m seeing this same thing is I see our definition of wealth being broadened, right? So instead of just looking at it and going, Okay, I’ve got a certain amount of money in my bank, right? Like, for most of my life, I wanted a million dollars. And then after that, I wanted 10 million and with 10 million that have enough, and somehow in my mind, that also became 20 million, right? Like, because we continue to conflate it’s never enough and all all of these crazy things. But then you begin to look at like what is true wealth, right? So you do have a financial component to it. But then you also have a freedom and how you use your time and that’s a big component of wealth for me, and then you have the value of your relationships and that’s a big component of wealth. And then you have what can You truly sink your life energy into that is of deep meaning. First, I believe, at least as my view like, like to self, right? Because in serving self, truly and holy, you serve others automatically. But you didn’t, you can also direct that out to give that same thing to other people like those things. And I’m sure there are more, this is just what’s coming to mind. Like that’s a broader definition of wealth that I think is incredible. And the thought that you sparked when you were sharing your thoughts about where we’re going. Like, none of this is new, right? If we go back and we look at spiritual texts, we look at religious texts, we look at all these things over time, like this is a known path, look at standard philosophy, take take religion out of it, right, because I know everybody has different views. We just look at like philosophy like stoic philosophy, etc. Like these things have been gone through for thousands and impossibly 10s of thousands of years of people trying to figure these things out. And we’ve done this on a personal level. But what I just realized is it’s almost like What we’re doing now is we’re taking the idea of a company because in our world companies and like what you do and your your value as a person is so ingrained, like the economy, the economy, whether it’s communism, socialism, capitalism, capitalism being the predominant is such a pervasive idea that we view the world through that lens no matter what, right? And so we’re almost like we’re seeing these vehicles of the economy, these companies begin to go up Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, along with the people within them, right? You don’t want to just work at a company that helps you survive. I mean, unless that’s like the base that you are, then it becomes Okay, how can I be in a company where I enjoy working there? Okay, then how can I be at a company that is meaningful? Okay, how can I be at a company that’s that’s helping the world in some way? Right. And it’s almost like we’re taking this personal journey that’s now happened for thousands of years. Have people going up Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. And we’re taking companies in the economy through them. And I think it’s an incredibly valuable thing to do, because of how predominantly we view the world through this economic lens. Hmm.

Stephen Christopher  38:13  

Interesting. I never thought about that way. I think that’s really interesting, very insightful.

Unknown Speaker  38:19  

I haven’t either like this is

Unknown Speaker  38:21  

right now in this moment.

Stephen Christopher  38:23  

best plowshare ever. Wow. Do you have any questions that have popped up yet? If not, I definitely have. I do have one question. So when you were talking about, you know, we know things in our head. Right, that you know, we grasp it. It makes sense to us, intellectually. We’ve tested it, we’re good with it, but embodying that and moving it through the rest of your body or taking your head to your heart. What have you done that? How are you doing that? You said, you know, I’m getting better. So these concepts they are getting Closer, what’s been some of the techniques that you’ve used?

Unknown Speaker  39:04  

Yeah. Um, so from the beginning of this journey, right, and this may be very standard for some people, it might be a little controversial for others, the beginning of this journey for me going back to 2011 was my first experience with with psychedelic mushrooms psilocybin. Right? And

Stephen Christopher  39:24  

what that did,

Unknown Speaker  39:27  

and I’m not saying this is right for everybody, let me be very clear. But I think it shows a path here that I think is going to be important to the broader majority. So I was so much in my head and I was so my whole life like the way I’ve dealt with the world as I’ve thought through it, I could, I’ve been blessed with this incredible brain that is quite honestly high horsepower, beautiful, but I would use it to solve everything in my life, turmoil, emotional problems, the uncertainty of the unknown etc. And it’s not a good time. For a lot of those problems. So my first experience with psilocybin in 2011, I was taken from this place where I viewed the world entirely from my head into actually being able to feel the world in a deeper way that I don’t remember feeling since I was a kid. Like, I honestly think back to a few times my teenage years as well, like just been it had been, you know, over a decade since I’d had that experience probably around 15 or so years. I’m like, okay, that’s interesting. That became a path that I pursued and I found useful. But along the way, I also came into meditation. And I came into this and realizing that this space, there’s this more embodied space of being open to your body open to your emotions open to your heart, especially for me, was one that you could get to a million different ways you could get there. I realized I was getting there through road trips. If I drove for a while I would fall into this place. I got there through Walking, I got there through meditation, of course, like I shared before I got there through psychedelics and using that as a medicine to help me forward. And that began to shift how I interacted with the world. And so I went from just thinking about the world to like thinking and feeling the world, right. And so, for me, I view the path as we go kind of like from head and I don’t think everybody does is people are wired differently. But for those wired like me, we start with the head, and it’s these thoughts. And then eventually we begin connecting into the heart, we begin to feel things like again and more deeply in that passion, that enthusiasm and that care for others and the empathy and all those things like you feel those more. And sometimes it’s deeply overwhelming because, like, for me, I turn that off for years and years and years. Yeah. And then it feels like there’s this move downward into the gut, if you will, like the actually like in this body. And I think of that is taking like Knowledge are taking this intellect and thinking ability, turning it into a wisdom, like the wisdom of emotion, the wisdom of feeling things. And then if you go down further, we’re actually moving into like the embodiment of it. The embodiment of it is where you get to live it more and more day to day, minute to minute, and you’re actually awake and alive and in this experience of life that we have more. And these things become automatic, you don’t have to think about Okay, centering my heart, make sure I’m here what I’m saying like you actually begin to live it and embody it. And so my journey has been one from here to here. And now I’m, I’m, I think I’m very well here. And it’s moving into how can I be this way of being all the time automatically open without feeling unsafe, because that’s the thing like my own fears and feeling unsafe, has been the thing that’s closed me down for most of my life. And then from there, there might be a further journey passed there. I don’t But I can say that that’s definitely the next step.

Stephen Christopher  43:02  

Interesting because I can almost see as you were doing that, it was like, okay, it’s in your gut. Now I have the wisdom, I have the knowledge, I have the complete understanding. So then that embodiment is actually putting it into your legs. So you could actually move and do something with it and, and have it associated with it.

Unknown Speaker  43:18  

100% right. And I think this is how. So I’ve always viewed myself I’ve never really viewed myself as an entrepreneur, I’ve always viewed myself as an artist. And I think part of that is because I am part of it is also because like, I spent 10 years in theater, like I’ve played in creative realms. And when I think about the act of creation, the act of creation is taking this like idea that’s just out in the ether, like it doesn’t even exist, it’s not even tangible and you like, like little bits of it, and you begin to understand it. And then it this idea has some personal meaning to you. There’s a reason that you feel it, there’s a reason that it’s important for you to to do something with it right. So you actually begin to get your emotions involved or it may happen like that. Sometimes you just don’t have a choice. And then, like you said, we need, we don’t need to. I’m choosing to and I think it can be a very good choice to take this forward into action. What does that actually mean? Because we’re living in this world, right? We’re here, we’re here might as well enjoy it might as well have fun with it might as well be the person that we want to be do the things that we want to do with no harm to others along this process. And so, yeah, like, like, that’s it’s the act of creation, right? Is Is this from here to something tangible, that exists in our world and that’s the humans are fascinating, like we are these creation machines. I think of sci fi a lot. I think of all the ideas people have. And then, like, suddenly, we’re starting to live in a world where those ideas that were written about by these sci fi writers and decades passed are becoming reality, right? We as humans, if we can truly envision something and then We can believe in it. Like, I don’t know of anything that we haven’t created as a result of that. That’s how powerful we are.

Stephen Christopher  45:06  

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if we have the ability to have the thought, right, like, where does that come from, it’s got to come from somewhere to get created. And I believe that if we’re, if we have the capacity to have the thought, we have the ability to create it. Right. And that’s kind of what you’re saying, what’s been happening? I mean, even look at we, I mean, we can go super Whoo, you know, you look at like the matrix and how now there’s, there’s all this scientific research started to come out around, you know, the, the field, the quantum field and stuff and how we were literally able to like collapse molecules, and it’s just crazy, like with our thoughts, right. And so, I think that’s just, I don’t know, I just think it’s so powerful in that. We’re still on the edge of it, right? Like it’s almost a little too much to talk about that stuff, but like we know, it’s true, we believe it, but then going back to yours. Like it’s kind of in here, like maybe it’s in our heart, but not quite fully embodied. But yeah, it’s just, it’s really, it’s really cool to watch what’s happening and someone else came up with as you were talking through that, which is our ability to use our emotions as a guide. Right, our emotions are, it’s a guiding force. And I think for me, and for a lot of people I’ve talked to in the past, like, kind of going back to the the initial thing about business, right? You know, you have this or a lot of people have this thing where they, they start a business, they’re running it, then they start waking up and they’re like, Oh, I don’t feel good anymore. And then they just keep going and going, but those when we learn to be more in tune with our emotions, and tap into those through things like meditation, plant medicine, we now are giving ourselves this unbelievable power to be guided to know these next answers and these best Kind of next steps that the, you know, the universe source God, whatever is laying out for us based on what we want. And I think it’s just really important to pay attention to the fact that emotions are good. Because so many of us, myself, I’m pointing at me, like, you know, we have those emotions, and we’re like, I just buried them. Right. And I mean, you alluded to some of those within your company. But that’s, I don’t know, that’s like, that was a big step for me. And it’s, it’s a relatively simple one. It’s just not easy.

Unknown Speaker  47:33  

If you’ll allow me to, I want to hit one thing, and then I want to talk about exactly what you just shared. So one is I think it’s worth addressing the Whoo, right, like, just, here’s the thing. We’re in this world where we’re, we’re embracing old concepts and we’re repurposing and we’re looking at them. And I don’t for anybody listening to this. I don’t think it matters whether you believe them or not, right, like whether like this is some superhero. tasik world, right can manifest anything, or whether we’re just biological living beings who happen to have a very complex brain, and we’re working through this world. What I think is important is, I think of all these things as ideas, right? Because ideas can be malleable, they can always be changed out. And I embrace a lot of these new ideas, because I find them very useful, meaning they give me this wider perspective of the world. That means that, like, the little steps that I make each day, are important, but also aren’t critical meaning like, like, I don’t have to worry about every misstep leading to my eventual demise and destruction, right? Like it just take things down. And so when I think about these concepts, whether we are in those moments of Wu connecting to a larger intelligence that cares about us and is benevolent and wants us to just be our full selves, or whether we’re connecting into our own unconscious, and it’s as simple as that, but it’s so vast that it’s beyond beyond What we can imagine and connect with, intellectually, unconsciously, it doesn’t matter, right? Either one is identical and it’s the same. What it really comes down to is what is the idea or belief that gives you this interface to this larger unknown world, so that you can embrace it and not be scared of it. And truly, like feel in touch with it in a way where you can move forward freely to do what you’re here to do. Right? So like, rather than judging new concepts based because they’re, we were not and I’m a woo person, or I’m not a woo person, just realize they’re like this, this user interface you like this lens to the world, and the whatever lens works for you to do what you need to do. That’s the right lens, perfect. You don’t need to do anything more. And then when you start to talk about emotions, and how emotions kind of like fall into this, I believe that emotions are good and healthy, and we’re supposed to feel them and it’s part of this experience and they just are intended to flow through right but because of hurts and traumas early in life or lessons that we’ve learned, like we learn to compartmentalize them and push them down which becomes unhealthy, a in our unconscious they royal around the they start to manifest as these unconscious patterns that can be harmful to ourselves or to others, or they may manifest physically into actual illnesses and issues that we have with health and it’s not healthy either. Right? What I will say about emotions though is because sometimes we get hurt like earlier in life, I’ve myself had multiple traumas that have just led towards this for a while unhealthy interaction with the world. Sometimes those emotions as valid as they are and they were always valid are also over sensitized, right like, you can feel anger, but that anger maybe because some wound within you has been triggered and that anger is valid. But it’s out of proportion with what’s going on. Right? This would happen to be a lot, or the sadness or depression or anything else is out of proportion with what’s actually going on doesn’t mean the emotion is bad. It doesn’t mean that it’s invalid. But it does mean that there’s an opportunity for us to look deeper into ourselves and figure out why am I having this out of proportion response, all this person did was x, and it did not deserve for me to like, like, be filled with rage, and to be seething, and you know, over this little thing that this person did. And so that became, in turn become some of the work that we can do to clear up those sensitive spaces, those wounds and then our emotions become more in tune with the world so that you feel happy because of the the joyful things are going on life. You feel angry at times because a boundary was trespassed, and it was a valid boundary. And it is worthy to be anger, angry in that moment, so that you have the energy to stand up against that. And ensure that that is no longer trespassed that you’re sad because something had happened that is worthy of being sad. And it’s okay to be sad. It’s okay to cry. And like, you’re you’re actually now in tune with the world and with the the cycles and the rhythms in the world, as opposed to these irrational, larger than life, like expressions of emotion that have happened because they’re either bottled or because of these triggers and these traumas that we have

Stephen Christopher  52:30  

like that a lot. How do you get awareness around that? Like, how do you start to become aware of those differences, right, like, which one is something that you’re kind of maybe blowing out of proportion, which, you know, so that you can then either work through that more or just becoming more aware of how to actually use your real emotions.

Unknown Speaker  52:55  

I, I believe there’s a couple parts to it. One of them quite honestly. And the tools that I fall back on a lot I owe to you, like you introduced me to Juliana ray of the unified mindfulness movement, right. And that became a really helpful use of tools, especially for somebody who is mind oriented. Because it’s kind of like this mind oriented approach to, to meditation and to mindfulness that works very, very well. It gives you these kind of like tools that you can use. And so utilizing those tools to go deeper beyond just the emotion that I’m feeling, and and actually sink into myself and be able to feel like what is it really, that this experience reminds me of what is it that I’m actually reacting to? And to get beyond this surface of emotion those tools have been incredibly helpful. And plant medicines have also been really helpful in this because and I found this with other people as well. With the right plant medicines, guided by somebody who’s truly proficient and caring and everything else, I truly think a really good guide here can be very important. They it’s almost like for a temporary amount of time they disarm these trip wires, right they they disarm these landmines that we have long enough for us to sink down into our emotions and actually feel them without these alarm bells going off. So what would happen to me and what happens to people very often who have traumatic experiences is that we end up with these these tripwires. And when they’re hit, we go into a fight or flight response like I’m talking literal fight or flight response, tunnel vision, adrenaline dump, my life is in danger. All you can think about is like the present moment. And often it’s in those that the world gets the scariest or that we lash out in very harmful ways. And so when those have been disarmed and you’re able to actually feel those limits It’s almost like there’s this backlog this like condensed for me, it was like this condensed mass of emotions that you begin to process the lid off the steam and let off the pressure and be able to deal with that over time. And then as that pressure from all those emotions that have been repressed begins to lessen, then it’s easier to be present, it’s easier to use the tools like I just mentioned, the unified mindfulness tools to be even more present and to be aware of what’s going on. And then you develop this automatic habit of when you feel this trigger, you feel these emotions go off, you automatically then begin this process of what is this really was this this moment was this because of it reminds me of this painful moment from my past when my father told me x, y and z, right, you know, and you really begin to take this back and down. So to shorten that up, the emotions need to be processed that can happen through therapy. That could have been through journaling that could happen through a plant medicine with a very caring and qualified guide. And then it’s like what tools help you get there more regularly, like I literally, since this experience that we’re going through, you know, so we have, we have COVID we have the police brutality and black life matters. And we have all these things are happening in our world right now. For the three months that this whole experience has been going on, at least here in the US, I’ve had some of the deepest meditations of my life. And I’ve been spending, I used to meditate on a good day 10 to 20 minutes on a really good day, maybe 30. And for whatever reason, I’ve been in meditation between an hour to two hours, sometimes even longer each day, almost every day throughout this experience. And what I’ve realized is I finally got to a point where these tools were powerful enough to allow me to be present with everything that we’re going through with all the fears that this is evoking within me, with all the shame and the guilt that this is invoking with me to be present with each of these. And every day, I’m literally processing through this, these emotions to be with them instead of to be scared of them, instead of to be overwhelmed by them instead of to push them down. I’m being with them every day. And if I hadn’t developed this tool set to this comfort, I don’t think I could have leaned in the way that I am and to feel all of this and be present with it and to learn from it. In this moment of incredibly heightened emotions that we’re going through,

Stephen Christopher  57:44  

but yeah, that’s awesome. And I love I love anytime we talk to somebody that is a I’m going to use the word successful, you know, kind of like as an entrepreneur type person or a leader because I think that You know, meditation is probably the most important thing that anybody should be doing, in my personal opinion, to be connected with all of those things, to learn how to start becoming aware of like, what’s really happening? What is that voice in my head? Is it really me? Like, what is it saying? Is it really true? You know, like, just understanding all that awareness, I think it’s so important. But I think it’s still it has a little bit of a taboo still in, in the business world or in the leadership world. It’s becoming a lot less. But I think we have so many incredible leaders out there that are only using a small portion of their capability. And you know, if I could prescribe one thing, it would be meditation. And so to hear, like, what what you’ve gone through and you know, the plant medicine, I mean, plant medicine is great, like it kind of basically, the way I look at it is it like it punches your ego, it just knocks it out, right so that it can’t actually communicate with you for a short period of time and you just have all the Stuff open. And like you mentioned, it must be done with somebody that knows what they’re doing and guided but um yeah, I mean the adaptation side it was it’s life changing for me

Unknown Speaker  59:12  

if I may step in for one second number one is it’s as far as like the the plant medicine everything else goes, it’s awesome. It shows you something that you may not have experienced before. It can be very helpful not required. Again, it’s not right for everybody. But you’re you’re only going there every so often. Like it’s this beautiful heart open place that is more rewarding, more fulfilling, etc. But you’re going there now and then it’s like a trip. It’s like a vacation. Right? Okay, awesome. Not always a fun vacation, but it’s like a vacation. But my my goal has been to I don’t want to visit these beautiful places. I want to live in them. And the only path I could find forward was to take mindfulness and meditation deeper and deeper and deeper, because that is beginning To allow me to live there each day. And like we talked about earlier and slowly this, this knowledge is rewiring my nervous system, and it’s becoming something embodied. And so I can be there in each moment in each minute, to the best of my ability. And I think that’s how we go from visiting someplace to living someplace and being right. And then meditation comes in a lot of different forms. And I think that this may be like a story analogy. I don’t have the right word. I’m going to share something and it may be useful to people. I got a chance last year to spend a week on Richard Branson’s Island, while Richard Branson was there. And the group was a very small group, there were eight of us, we got to sit down and have many meals, most of them with Richard. And in that group, you know, meditation and mindfulness and these tools have become very popular. And one of these dinners like Richard was like, alright. I want to know like the Tell me about this meditation thing like, Is this real? Like, like, is this helpful as we started talking about it, etc. And one of the gentlemen who is with us, Steve, always very smart and very wise. He began to turn this around. He’s like, do you not find meditation like useful? And Richard’s like, ah, I mean, it just never really worked for me. Okay. And so he had Richard describe his day, like, what is the thing that you do every day, etc. And what Richard does, he comes to Necker Island, specifically, it’s a place where he goes to recharge, right and to really feel into himself. Beautiful. But he gets up in the morning, and he plays tennis and he does all these very active things. And he goes, you know, windsurfing, he does swimming all the things he loves to he’s an incredibly active person. And Steve started digging down into what it is that that Richard does. And what we came to realize is Richard is going through this deep meditative process every day through action, right. So The frame I want to share here is that meditation doesn’t just mean I’m sitting on a cushion. I’m listening to some chance and I’m deep into myself It can and I find that very useful. But you can get there in long walks, you can get there while you’re writing. You can get there while you’re playing tennis, you can get there while you’re swimming. A lot of people get there while they’re running. Like, there are a lot of ways to get into that meditative state. Whatever way you get, there is the right way for you. There isn’t a right way to meditate. And so we came to realize that actually, the bulk of Richard’s day is in flow and in this meditative flow state, whether he’s working or working out or whatever else, and he’s probably meditating more than any of us. So I just that frame I think could be really helpful rather than this narrow focus of, I need to be on a cushion. I need to have chance I need to focus on my breathing. I need to be present. For some people, especially in the beginning, like That may not be the path that works and it doesn’t have to be.

Stephen Christopher  1:03:03  

Dude, that’s awesome. Yeah, great reminder because I think we do all get hung up in that od but I don’t if you would have said to me, do you meditate? I would have said no. I mean I try occasionally but it doesn’t really I don’t get much out of it. But I do believe that I do us other things that activity of walking or sometimes doing something like crafting where I’m doing something with my hands. And I’m everything else goes away and it’s just about that and what I’m feeling and what looks good, and that’s probably the closest thing to meditation I do.

Unknown Speaker  1:03:37  

And that is perfect and beautiful. Right and, and what’s really powerful is as you develop these tools, again, like you’re you’re rewiring neural pathways, right? And the more you utilize a neural pathway, the the deeper it gets, the easier it gets, the more your brain defaults to it. Where this can go is so I shared for the past few months I’ve had really deep meditations etc. Whatever I mean by deep meditations, is, these meditations are so deep, that multiple times per week, they’re as deep as some of the medicine journey, some of the plant medicine journeys that I’ve had. Right. So I’m entering a point where plant medicine is purely optional for me, because I can get to the same point with the same depth with the same clarity while still being able to get up minutes later and be fully active in my day via meditation. Right and, and so, as you practice this tool, it gets to a very powerful place and I’m still a beginner like there’s still a long way for this to go. And it can go well beyond just Alright, I feel a little more calm. Nothing wrong with I feel a little more calm. That could be incredible in a day, but it can truly take you down to like being in tune with your soul and receiving the advice from your soul every day. Throughout the day,

Stephen Christopher  1:05:02  

yeah. I love that. Awesome, awesome, man. Well, I think let’s do that. So Chris, why don’t you? Why don’t you share a little bit about where people could find you if they’re interested in knowing more talking to you. I know you have a scheduling link out there that at least one person is used. And, and then Laura, if you have any last minute questions, and then Chris, just if you have anything else that you want to share, I think that’d be a great way to kind of wrap this up.

Unknown Speaker  1:05:31  

Yeah. So number one, if you want to reach me, Twitter, Chris Plough. It’s a great way to have a direct conversation. Chris plow comm is where I keep most of my stuff. I’ll be honest with you right now it’s out of date, and it’s going through a renewal process, where I’m going and I think that this connection thing becomes really interesting. What I’ve realized is one of the most important things for me is to have deep commerce. with people, and especially people who wouldn’t otherwise get to be heard or understood. And so I’m in the process of developing a show a live show where people get to call in and we get to have these conversations. But until that show is ready, because I still don’t know exactly when it’s going to start. I’m creating a link. And it’s a, I’ll share it with Stephen, and he can share it afterwards with this, but I’m creating a link today so that people can just schedule calls with me throughout the week. Think of it like open office hours. If you have something that needs to be talked about that needs to be shared. You need somebody to listen. I’m creating that space in my life now. Because I know that that space has been one of the most crucial things that other people have given me that have truly helped me out. And this particular offer, there’s no sell, there’s no upsell, there’s no anything else like this is my gift to the world. There are other things I’m going to do with this. Like I’m going to develop a show where people get to do this live and we as Humanity get to learn and listen and receive wisdom from each other. Right? I think that’s gonna be insanely valuable. But for right now, my one immediate step is just, I’m opening up my calendar. And for those who need to, like be heard, who need to have a conversation, who need somebody to be there, like just to listen for that period of time. Like, I’ll share it and you’ll be able to sign up.

Stephen Christopher  1:07:23  

That’s awesome. Awesome, man. Yeah, I mean, for anybody listening if you if you’re, if you’re even remotely thinking like, wow, it’d be great to have that conversation with Chris. I have stuff that I think he could help me with. He’s not lying when he says it like I promise you schedule the link. I’ve had many, many conversations. You know, Chris, you and I, they go, some deeper than others. Some are longer than others, some shorter than others. I know you and my wife Katie have had conversations until five or six. The first time I met Laura, we like I met him and I think we stayed up till three or four in the morning talking. It was like it just was like easy and it was amazing. Yup. So if even if you have that little bitty inkling of like, oh, maybe that sounds like something I should do that probably is a, that probably means you should do it. And Chris means what he says. He’s one of the most giving people that I know. And so,

Unknown Speaker  1:08:14  

yeah, and this helps me as well. Like, I’ll be very honest with you like my personal stake in this is, like, if there’s one thing that I could do, I would love to have this show where I get to talk to people, and I get to share wisdom from me. And I get to more importantly, share their wisdom, to the mass of humanity to everybody, so that we all get to move forward together. Right. So this like you calling in and let having these conversations helps me further along this path. So I benefit as well as you and believe that you’re doing me a favor.

Stephen Christopher  1:08:45  
​
No, we’re all in this. We’re all in this together. Awesome. So let’s it’ll be a cure. There’s so many takeaways. I have three pages of notes. So I think the things that stood out for me the most in terms of kind of the first stage As you’re thinking about, okay, maybe this isn’t for me anymore, I want to do something else, there’s a different I need something more is to acknowledge that many people who are have been in that place don’t feel successful either. Even when the external validation tells you that you’ve made it, but it’s not gonna say normal, but it’s common to say, wait a minute, you know what, I don’t still feel that. So I think acknowledging that, which then led me kind of to that deeper emotion thing that we talked about at the end, that allowing those emotions to flow through you. And if you’re not able to do that, then to look at that and say, Okay, why is that? Have I been able to? Is it manifesting in my behavior? Is it manifesting in some physical ailments I have, or even an out of proportion response to something. I kind of tied those two things together. The second one that I came away with was the The need for many, many, many entrepreneurs and leaders to have to be perfect. They, we set our own standards very high. And as a result of that, when we start thinking about doing something outside of our company, there’s shame associated with that. There is this sense of Wait a minute, I’m not being loyal, I’m not being true. Because if I was then I wouldn’t be feeling this way. But to acknowledge that you could have both you can still feel like wait a minute, I’m doing right for my company. I’m doing right for my family, by also taking care of myself and doing what’s going to bring me to that place. Um, I think the third one was related again to the emotions and the feelings tapping into those trying to get them out of your head and knowing that they’re different ways to get them out of your head. Get yourself out of your head, you know, medicines, meditation, any combination of those things, whatever works for you a physical activity, so that those feelings and emotions go from your head to your heart, then hopefully they become wisdom. And from there, you could then start to live it and embody it in your life. So those are my takeaways. I’m so excited. That’s awesome. Yay. Cool. Well, everybody, we thank you so much. One more, one more. One more. One. We will be looking for a plow, you might be several courses that are going to come about so you might I might be your first student. Oh, I love it. All right, everybody. Well, thank you so much for taking time out of your day to hang out with us. You know, we’re all on this journey together. And we’re all here to contribute to each other, connect with each other and make this a much better experience for all of us. And each of us have absolutely amazing things to offer in the world and so go out there every day become the absolute best version of yourself and lean into the exciting unknown.